Feedback

[The Portrait of Zool]

OMG JOAT! http://www.themightypen.net/public/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif

 

I thought you'd dropped off the face of the earth! http://www.themightypen.net/public/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif Shows what I know.

 

Good to see you around.

[reverie]

Oh cool you're still alive. Neat.

[Appy]

*sticks out two grubby and most of all bare feet while balancing on her skippyball* No socks! You did it! *grins at Joat*

 

(Good seeing you )

[Appy]

On another note, something technical I've been missing is a 'back to top' link in posts... I was just reminded that I could just use the home key.. but I figured I should post that suggestion here anyways.. this being the Feedback thread and all

 

So: What I desire is a 'back to top' link

[Patrick]

On the tan skin the button to go up to the top is this one:

 

 

right next to the report button.

 

And on the default skin it's this:

 

[Appy]

d'oh!

 

Thanks Patrick!

[Psimon]

What do I desire/expect from the Pen?

• To always be here to welcome me home with open arms no matter how long I've been away.
• To always be a vibrant and growing community of writers.
• To always be open to change yet remaining true to itself.
• To always challenge me to partcipate, to develop, and help others to do likewise.

That about covers it for me, and looking at the above, I think the Pen is doing pretty well so far

[Ozymandias]

I compiled lists of all desirable and undesirable qualities of the Pen listed so far.

 

First, the wish list:

• resurrect the news page
• give feedback (critical AND noncritical)
• trust more (including, but not limited to in how feedback is received)
• post more (-goes for *everywhere*)
• more accessibility updates from Elders & GLs
• more action (sitewide activities like the carnival: i.e., theme days)
• more action in IRC
• straightforward file structure
• wikipedia entry
• reliable access to knowledgeable grammarians (not listed in this thread, but a wish expressed in my hearing)
• 'save a copy when sent' PM option having a default setting
• all-access greenroom
• all-access critic's corner
• (re)move guilds
• move Piazza
• move Walls of the Pen
• revision of vieiwing permissions
• a 'save copy when sent' PM option default *off* setting
• elders/GLs more vocal across the Pen
• feedback level you *give* listed
• separate Werewolf forum
• more roleplaying
• fill out feedback box with honesty & clarity

Second, the satisfaction:

• the friends
• werewolf
• care & consideration
• security
• our IRC channel
• patience
• versatility in communication channels
• versatility in writing opportunity

My two ents:

 

A separate Werewolf forum

Why?

 

Wikipedia entry

 

/me slaps his forehead

 

It's free, it's WIDELY consulted...I wish I'd thought of that. :>)

 

 

Did I catch everything, folks?

 

 

LURKERS! POST!

 

 

 

*Everyone*:

It has become quite clear (not just in here) that the Pen has been only giving the minimum our members

need/want for a very long time now.

 

The vibrant days are missed by everyone who remembers them, and frankly, for the newer folks as well, I know we can do better. It's also become apparent that working only with attitude will not fix this. The site as a physical entity (digital entity? ^^; ...you know what I mean...) needs a lot of work too, and there's no time like the present to do it.

 

This is where you, Initiates, Pages, Honored Guests, Vigil, Poets, Quill Bearers, Bards, EVERYONE come in.

We have no plan atm.

 

We need a plan of action before we can set about making some changes around here. To develop that, we need to ask ourselves what's good, and what's missing. So I say this to myself, and to you lurkers as well:

 

 

SPEAK! and be heard.

 

I say this to everyone who has already:

 

KEEP SPEAKING!

 

Screw brainstorm. I want this upgraded to a hurricane.

 

This is your place just as much as mine. Feel like it isn't anymore? Like it never was? Just have one or two nagging thoughts? Love everything?

 

 

SPEAK!

 

and it will make a difference.

[Psimon]

What do I desire/expect from the Pen?

• To always be here to welcome me home with open arms no matter how long I've been away.
• To always be a vibrant and growing community of writers.
• To always be open to change yet remaining true to itself.
• To always challenge me to partcipate, to develop, and help others to do likewise.

That about covers it for me, and looking at the above, I think the Pen is doing pretty well so far

Update:

I guess I need to clarify my list a little, particularly point #3, I think it's really important to still keep the 'old-school' flava of The Pen - ie. the feeling of the whole 'place' that is the Pen. The odd map wouldn't hurt in that regard - I still have to teleport home to use the bathroom because I still haven't found the ones here! j/k but, all joking aside, my point remains - the atmosphere, and the writing that that atmosphere inspires, is what for me distinguishes the Pen from a squillion other online writing groups that I've seen - that and the fantastic group of people that the Pennites are, of course! That's what I mean when I say above about "remaining true to itself".

That's enough for now, I guess. I'll dwell on it some more and post as the muse descends

Edited August 26, 2006 by Psimon

[Appy]

Forget about me proposing a seperate WW forum... don't know what possessed me to think of it in the first place (aka, the good people in IRC convinved me of my folly )

Thanks for the update!

 

*wanders of in search of coffee*

[Wyvern]

Wyvern uncoils his tail from a Cabaret chair leg and lifts himself from his seat, stepping up with a hobble as the infamous black asp tightens around his leg yet again. The overgrown lizard lets out a low hiss of a sigh as he overhears the various arguments and proposals pass back and forth, and wanders through the noisy room while glancing at the various paintings that coat the walls. He pauses for a moment as he comes across a small portrait of two skies conjoined in perfect symmetry; a gift that he'd given to Yui-chan and the Pen earlier in the year, as a memorium of sorts. The lizard clears his throat and stretches his wings at the howl of Ozymandias' familiar voice, then turns to the pennite masses once Psimon and Appy have finished speaking.

 

"Well." Wyvern twiddles his claws reluctantly and sniffs a bit. "I ain't much of a speech-giver outside of Almost Dragonic Brand Product Campaigns™, but there is something I haven't heard mentioned in these proposals that I think is very important: this room."

 

The Pen masses stare at Wyvern with a collective expression of confusion as the lizard looks up at the Cabaret ceiling and spreads his arms. He turns in a circle with his neck craned upwards, then strikes a small smile.

 

"These walls are so rich with history that they don't even need geld furnishing..." Wyvern turns and points a claw towards Alaeha. "Alaeha, you remember that time when you modeled in Merelas' Fashion Show? The walkway was right where you're standing now, and you and Appy showed off yer stuff in turn. Wowzas did the crowds cheer that night... I know I did."

 

Wyvern lets his tongue roll loose at the mere thought of the occasion, but snaps out of his daze at the sight of Alaeha and Appy crossing their arms over their chests.

 

"*Ahem* And Patrick." Wyvern redirects his claw and grins. "Remember rushing in late to that table over there, just in time to scrawl your name down for YanYanGanaffi's Poker Tourney? And Sweet, you came whizzing in after him on that crazy pogostick. Mynx, Katzaniel, Gryphon... you were all there. And we had ourselves a time, y'know, life-threatening black holes aside."

 

Wyvern nods and turns towards the Portrait of Zool, snorting smoke rings of laughter as he points a claw.

 

"Oh gawd. Zool, remember that time when I set you up on that Paint Ain't Quaint gameshow, with the paintings lined along the rear wall over there?" Wyvern snickers to himself. "Heck, just think of all the great gifts we've given to fellow pennites in this room. It's been a regular B-Day celebration HQ."

 

Wyvern smiles and spreads out his scaly arms, staring up at the ceiling again.

 

"And not just this room, all the rooms of the Pen. It's a Keep with a profound hissstory." Wyvern's smile slowly fades and he lets his arms droop down to a hunch. "Which is why it's a shame to see'em abandoned, collecting dust. This last Sssummer Carnival, aside from the usual auctioning that went on around these quarters, there were a total of five events that occured in the rooms of this Keep... and four of those were of my own almost dragonic devising. Don't get me wrong, there were a buncha other great exercises n' things to participate in, but I couldn't shake the feeling that these rooms felt a little deserted."

 

Wyvern sniffles a little, then marches up to Ozymandias and snatches the checklist from his hands in a typical rude fashion.

 

"I'm lookin over this sheet, and I'm not seeing much in terms of the Pen's rooms here either." Wyvern lets out a long sigh, his snout twisted in discontent. "It's certainly fun to look over the Werewolf murals on the Conservatory walls, and I'm sure D&D campaign paintings'll be equally cool to look at, but they're not events that occur in these halls. They don't involve the wonderfully eccentric characters that have gathered in this room to discuss things today (Stoomp's origin being the sole exception). They are not a piece of the Pen Keep's long history of events."

 

Wyvern sniffles to himself and hands the sheet back to Ozymandias, then tries to keep a solid composure as he twists his tail stinger in the Cabaret carpet.

 

"Now-" Wyvern pauses and takes a deep breath, then stares at the ground and sniffles, not wanting the Pen masses to see his face. "Pleassse, do continue with the feedback development, and the Werewolf and the D&D ideas. But don't forget that the Pen's many historic rooms are always available for events or activities, as an escape. Sometimes, it feels a bit lonely to me around here."

 

With that, Wyvern bows to the gathered pennites, then turns to leave only to trip over the seam of a rug and fall flat on his face.

 

*grumble*

[Ayshela]

I've been mostly lurking myself, for ages... doing stuff behind the scenes/through PM and otherwise just dashing through to make sure things weren't exploding around anyone.

Well, until my computer threw a temper tantrum and required rebuilding *twice* due to successive hardware failures. (I put on my steel-toed boots and threatened to kick it back into its senses, and it seems to be behaving again.)

My apologies for my disappearance, seeming or actual. Soon as I find the overgrown patch of velcro I stuck in the courtyard, y'all will know right where to find me.

 

 

What do I want from the Pen? What I've always wanted from the Pen, and what I've always found here.

 

The Pen has always been the safest place to bring anything I wanted to share, to share with people I knew would accept both writing AND author, where it would be safe to openly say what I thought, what I felt, what I believed. I never had an open place, before, where I really *could* just say what I really thought, much less what I really felt. Pulling up a barstool in the Cabaret, posting a poem or story, or a more private Real Life story under the Oak Tree - I can do that here.

 

I found my voice here, and a place where I could safely speak my mind and heart.

I want the Pen to be that. I want that safe place to find your voice and speak your heart to be here - for me, for the current members, and for people who haven't yet found their way here.

 

 

Beyond that?

I want people to relax a little bit. Have some fun in the Cabaret. TALK with each other.

 

Want more feedback? Filling out your profile is a necessary and appreciated first step, but talking with people outside of the story/poem threads is a good - if not necessary - second step. I've left feedback for people I've never exchanged words with before - and will again - but not comfortably. Those I feel I know a bit better, whose reactions I'm more familiar with, are more likely to get more extensive feedback because I know more what they're looking for and how they respond to different approaches. Converse. Interact.

 

Relative to that, I really MISS the conversation-generating threads in the Cabaret. It seems lately so much focus has been on "We're a writing board" that anything which doesn't relate directly to writing or the board progress of the membership is off-limits, including many general conversation threads which would have well served the purpose of bringing this group of separate writers closer together as a group. Maybe it's time we rethink that? We're writers, yes. That's why we're here - for most of us, yes. Must we be ONLY writers to fit in here? Must that be ONLY what we're about? Can't we be people developing friendly relationships as writers? I think several of the previously mentioned "wish list" items would be accomplished, were this the case.

 

 

The structure of the Pen - there's room for adjustment, I agree. Personally, I always LIKED the structured approach of generally visible rooms, accessing newer areas with each promotion. Breaking up the visibility not only added to the security of more administrative level conversations, but it decreased the confusion of stumbling into this new space with specific areas for specific things and trying to figure it all out. I know I wasn't the first one to post something in the wrong place, nor was I the last, but it was easier to settle in with fewer spaces to figure out right out of the gate.

 

Meh. There's probably lots more I wanted to say, but anything else will wait. The greatest thing I want from the Pen, though: That the safe, warm, and welcoming space I first fell into still be here, safe and warm and welcoming to those who follow(ed).

[The Portrait of Zool]

Zool smiles a wistful, reminiscent smile. "Yeah, I remember. I remember that, and so much more."

 

With that, Zool's gaze turns outward, and somehow inward at the same time. So much time has gone by, and so many events. Others also have their recollections, which he never argues with - but he remembers, and it is always sweet - even the bitter.

 

"I remember Wyv," he murmurs, and fades to the background again, the small smile and wistful expression never leaving his painted visage.

 

"I remember. I remember... "

[reverie]

"Be the change you want to see in the world.

If you want to change the world, change yourself."

-Gandhi

 

"Physician heal thyself."

-Luke 4:23

 

 

"Tomorrow is today."

-anon.

[Belizean]

My my my my my....... it has been too long! *waves at all the long time members of The Pen*

It really made my day when I logged on to my email and saw a message from The Pen! Anyways I don't have the right to give a suggestion anymore since I am no longer a part of the community but if I did have some kinda input I would say..... mango tree's. This place is seriously lacking in mango trees! Can you imagine how wonderful it would be to have fresh mangos anytime you like? Let me give you a little hint, you can eat them green if you sprinkle a little bit of spicy salt on the slices. It is delicious! *wink*

 

Ah but this place does bring back wonderful memories. The friendly environment and open minded individuals that bring this place together. Years ago when I actually participated in the RPing and storytelling I had an absolute blast perusing these forums, coming up with wonderful tales that would not only astound you but also put good use to the term 'lol'. Nothing beats actually laughing out loud when reading something amusing. I always did like putting a humurous twist on things, Wyvern had a much better knack for doing it though So I just wanted to inform all the new members, and remind the older ones, how wonderful a place this forum is! Just because I don't come as often doesn't mean I have forgotten about you. This place will always be dear to me. I'll just stop now cause I must sound real sappy hehe

[Sweetcherrie]

A bit more practical question...

 

Could we have a small place for visual art? I know it's not really writing, but it sorta comes together with it for a few people here

[Asmadeus]

Asmadeus makes a step forward, and hesitate a moment before speaking since he is a very new member

 

"As a newcommer, it was hard for me to find place in which I could speak or write something, because (and Minta (Quincunx)'ll tell you) I really love to make the contrary of you all, which is to absolutely not to think and write down whatever bumps in my head. Well, don't come to imagine yourself that I cannot take some times to ponder a few hours on a specific subject either, but I prefer to shout my first, true feeling loud, even if it is not likely to be sane.

For this reason, I have to agree with everyone here who said to "speak" and I'd love more "chitchat" discussions in this room. - Well, since everyone said we all should speak more, why aren't we already ? For some particular reasons, I don't like to create new topics much, but I will always be here to answer to anything whenether I know or not (there is nothing worst than not having an answer at all to a serious question when nobody knows, I prefer by far having everyone to answer "sorry I don't know" than to feel as if they were ignoring the question )"

[Gwaihir]

This was originally posted in response to a question from me asking what GLs want concerning t he guilds and what they think we should do.

 

Quoted with permission from Mynx

To be honest? I don't know.

I mean, the Guilds were created for an audience that now appears to have disappeared, leaving behind only those who for some reason are against us.

 

Since I became a Guild Leader, the rules and purposes of the Guilds have changed so much that I don't even really know what we do anymore. Since when did our only/main purpose be to organise and run games and the carnival? Because that is the impression I am getting.

 

And I think part of the reason to the absense of Guild Leaders is the lack of training we get when we take up the role. I know that Crypt has barely been told a thing except "You're a Guild Leader" which certainly isn't helped by the changing expectations of the Guilds. It was easier when I was appointed, but as the number of resignations and reappointments has increased recently I know these things have gotten harder.

 

So once again we are back to the initial question and the only answer I can offer - I don't know.

I don't know what the Pennites want, I don't know what I'm even meant to be doing anymore, I don't know what I want.

 

It was easier when there were Pennites who made use of the Guild were around. If everyone is against us, maybe it is for the best that we close down. I don't know.

 

But if all we are reduced to is events organisers, then I'm not so sure I want the job anymore.

[Sweetcherrie]

Hmm…I think that event organizer is one of the most important tasks of a Guild Leader. Already if you look at what people would like to see around the Pen I think you can see is that it’s activity and stuff organized what is needed. But not only event organizer, muse prickler, activity poker, helper…etc.

 

Setting up an activity should not only be creating a nice activity and leaving it at that. It should be something that the whole membership can benefit from and has fun with. And if you fail the first time, you try a next time.

 

The other thing that the Guilds were set up to do as far as I know, was help people who wanted this help, to improve in their writing. Either by giving them advice themselves or by connecting them with other people who can help.

 

But, they were set up as an elite club, for those people who had already advanced in their writing, and wanted to advance even further. It’s pretty clear that an elite club is not what fits in the Pen I think, not if indeed the people who wanted this elite club have seemed to move on.

 

I’ve been working with the guilds, and have been a guild leader, I think the guilds should be more interwoven than what they are now. A guild leader is not always able to give advice, also because they are simply not always capable enough to give it to the person who is seeking for it.

 

What the guilds are now is dispensable, what they can be is a whole different thing.

 

If the guilds were to pick up the challenge of organizing the different genres (not your own corner) in a way that the guilds will become interwoven with the Pen, and were less reluctant to give up their “We have to hold on to what we have, because the Gods prevent they erase us” attitude, I think they could help a great deal with getting some new and refreshing things around here.

 

And yes, if that maybe means only organizing activities at the moment then this is what they should start with. Talking about greater things can always be done after, but start with the simple stuff and while you try to work that out, talk about how to get things done. Don’t talk about getting things done, and do nothing.

 

Anyways, two cents of someone who’s still very much behind the possibilities of the guilds, but more and more against what they are now.

[Patrick]

..."We have to hold on to what we have, because the Gods prevent they erase us" attitude...

Errrr...did I miss something here? Because as far as I can see from what we showed of our discussions in the Double Secret Room, it's exactly the opposite. We're actively looking at how we could restructure.

[Sweetcherrie]

Hmm...maybe some of you are indeed

 

But you guys should be a team, and to me it feels as if some are actively looking to restructure, and others are either not active at all, or they are somehow trying to hold on to what they have.

 

I could be wrong, but then again what I can see is giving me this impression. I cannot speak for what I cannot see.

[Xaious, Master of Time]

I think what I would like to see from The Pen is a free lifetime supply of chocolate coated expresso beans for all QUill-Bearers. But I would gladly wear a shirt.

I know I do a lot of...um..nothing here lately, and I really wish I could change that, but since I joined the working world almost a year ago, in conjunction with my college education acquiring, well, I haven't much time to myself, which hinders my ability to come here and write.

...

I think I'll take this class-time here (Computers in the Office, we're "learning" how to work Word) to go make some update of my life-story for y'all.

[Gwaihir]

Sweetcherrie,

I hope it was not a mistake to post what I did here. I would not wish to give the impression that people aren't trying. Please try to trust us a bit here. No one is fighting change.

[Alaeha]

(Warning: Rant Ensuing)

 

The other thing that the Guilds were set up to do as far as I know, was help people who wanted this help, to improve in their writing. Either by giving them advice themselves or by connecting them with other people who can help.

 

But, they were set up as an elite club, for those people who had already advanced in their writing, and wanted to advance even further. It’s pretty clear that an elite club is not what fits in the Pen I think, not if indeed the people who wanted this elite club have seemed to move on.

Umm... nice try, but no. Waaaaaaaaay back in the dark ages, when dinosaurs roamed the earth and the face of the membership was completely different, the problem that originally sparked the conversations which led to the implementation of the guilds had nothing to do with providing more advanced feedback or any such. If that had been their original purpose they would not have been introduced as they were -- it would have been much easier and more to the point just to revise the Writer's Workshop. The original point to the guilds was to address the overwhelming tendency of the membership toward finishing up their Quill Quests, looking around and seeing no further room for advancement, and falling off the face of the earth.

 

When Finnius and I took over the AAA, we deliberately restructured it to be an Elite Club. No rubber stamp policy mandated that any who bothered to apply could get in -- by the time you're a Quillbearer and looking toward advancement outside of the ranking system already in place within the Pen at large, we expected at least minimal ability within your field. It was a stark contrast from the Pen's "come as you are" attitude, and it was good.

 

But the guilds have been defined and redefined and reredefined, changed hands, lost steam, lost socks in the wash, and had the majority of those actively interested in any of their original purposes either conscripted into planning events as Guild Leaders or wandered off. The common thread in every definition seems to be that it's somehow dirty to want further advancement or recognition after finishing up your Quill Quest, so that aspect has been shunted aside repeatedly in favor of emphasizing the purpose of the guilds as a "learning aid" or "activity center". If we had been given "create learning aids" as our focus, we would likely have just added a "library" to the Workshop to hold a compiled series of "Lesson" threads in the vein of the ones I made back when I was actively writing poetry. If activities were what was needed, there was no need to divide things up by genre -- just put together an Events Committee or some such composed of people who knew that organizing events was what was expected of them, and let them brainstorm ideas and contact people.

 

I think that event organizer is one of the most important tasks of a Guild Leader.

And that's actually in part my fault -- I was one of those responsible for the original carnival, whose purposes were to liven the Pen and spread awareness of (and interest in) the Guilds. It's since mutated and begun to devour the guilds such that people think that it should be their purpose and focus. As I said, if you want an Events Committee, there's nothing wrong with having one.

 

You say that the guilds as they currently exist are dispensable. I think it's unjust to hand someone a title, neglect to mention which of the half-dozen or so visions of the Guilds is current, and expect them to make anything worthwhile. I think it's criminally unjust to blame and accuse the guild leaders for the failings of what was foisted off of them in poor condition. And in addition to fixing the undefined broken factor, they're expected to organize events for a mass of entities which may or may not deign to respond to any or all of them (ever wonder why Peredhil has so much geld that he set up a thread for lending it out? It's not because we bribed him to be such a polite guy -- for a while he was participating in every guild event to try and get people interested in them). The Pen will get no more out of the guilds than it puts into them. Every activity, no matter how good the idea, will flop if nobody is interested. Every forum, as we can see from experience, will be silent if people aren't interested enough to post in it. The AAA is just now starting to get the "classes" that Finnius and I had wanted it to have.

 

And I'm sick to death of this entire discussion, which has been occurring in bits and pieces almost since the guilds came into existence. As I see it, for this discussion to go anywhere new, all of the various purposes and models of the guilds will need to be acknowledged and examined, and those who are running the situation will have to decide which of those are and are not currently needed. If the current forum structure doesn't fit that, fine. I recall that there were PMs going around at some point asking if (in the event that the guild forums got restructured) the old works posted throughout the guilds could be reposted in the appropriate places around the Pen.

 

Edit: Also, discussion of the Guilds and their structure really shouldn't take over the feedback thread, so we should probably make a separate thread for it. (Realized this after I took in the size of this post)

Edited August 30, 2006 by Alaeha

[Ozymandias]

One more point of clarification.

 

On matters of the guilds: Anything you feel could be taken out, should be taken out, could be added in, should be added in, any changes needed at all, continue to voice that in here just as you have been for any other part of the site.

 

Alaeha, it took me a minute, but I realize you have an excellent point and full-on discussion of each individual portion of the Pen (the example in this case being in depth discussion over the guilds) should be in a separate thread. But, I would say don't do it yet because while we are still having a fantastically bigger response to this fundamental question of "What do you want from the Pen" I still want more, and I think a separate discussion at this point would distract people too easily.

 

Everything I have seen for the past few years (perhaps longer) about lack of feedback, about lack of activity, about how we treat Guild Leaders, about how the guilds are to be run, about a lack of patient and trusting attitudes toward ANY change (note I did not say you have to ACCEPT changes), a lack of trust and patience in many other dealings around the entire site from the Cabaret all the way through to the Tower and including the IRC channel, how to lay out the board more coherently, what the blankety-blank we should do with this rank system, and openness from Elders has told me as well as others emphatically that there are things we need to change around here. I too really really want "the old school flava" and would be heartbroken if we lost it. What I'm trying to say is I love what we do, but while there are some people who do still perform admirably every time, in every way, as we did back in "the old days" we as a community have reached a point where we do not need to and should not change WHAT we do, but how we do it. Does this mean that we need to toss the old site out and start all over again? I don't think so. But as listed out by those of you who have so capably and forthrightly stood up and said within this thread, as I have just related to you in my own experience, some things need to be changed. However, I repeat my earlier point that this is really all I, or any other "powers that be" know for certain. We have no plan yet on how to change things. The one other point we do know for certain is that while this won't be everything, it's big enough that it would be a mistake to not just sit down with everybody so that all of us can form this plan of action together. So KEEP TALKING.

 

Any questions?