Life Question 14...

[Ayshela]

Bast, of course!

[Peredhil]

I read NTraveler2's post and intially thought, "Oh dear. This is why I have a distaste for emotionally-linked threads such as religion and politics."

 

However, on thinking about it, I feel I owe it to the Pen not to just shake my head and walk away with a sigh, but to express WHY the post disturbed me. It wasn't WHAT was said as much as HOW it was said.

 

I'm quite religious in my own way.

 

Fine so far. Many of us echo this in variations. Notice the "I" statement owning the thought and feelings, but implicitly acknowledging that others may not be religious or religious in not their own way or her way. "I believe, but you can believe differently" works well at the Pen. It allows discussion instead of battle. I picture it as if we are friends standing side-by-side, laying our cards on the table and examining the configurations, similarities, and differences and commenting on them.

One alternative picture is the fox-hole mentality - I'm on this side of the table with my cards, and the area between us is an expected battlefield. If you lay down a card, I have to neutralize it or trump it - and there can only be one over-all winner.

 

I worship the Goddess.

Okay. Another "I" statement. Several of my friends do too. Their choice. *shrugs*

 

All these monotheistic, savagely proselytizing, male-deity-oriented religions do give me headaches.

Now I have a problem. Monotheistic religions, when analyzed for what they are, not what claim to be, fall into Hebrew (waiting for a Messiah), Christian (Messiah came and is returning), and Moslem (Have the Prophet, waiting on Messiah? I'm still learning this one). But common to all three is the basic principle of separation. There is a single God, who created a creation, but is totally separate from it. Help in one way or another is needed to reach or communicate with this diety (if desired).

Contrast this with the myriad forms of unary-theistic, in which individuals are an extension of creation. The base form is that all is one, and individuals are extensions of whatever form(s) the diety(dieties) are identified. The ultimate goal is a blending of ego with the oneness of all in some form, merging with the all.

Now, it is the word savagely which disturbs me most, as that word makes this an attack.

I'm quite good at attack and defense of ideas in the rest of my life. I'd rather not have to deal with it at the Pen. Normally I don't. Using the word savagely makes this a post which seeks to manipulate through generalization and implicitly in second-order analysis places any who disagree in condemnation.

Jareena Fay, in one of her first posts, wrote a manipulative post. When it was pointed out to her, she changed her style and has been a welcome member since. Alternatively, she could've taken refuge in pride and anger, and decided, "they misunderstood, I'm right, they're wrong." One of the problems with anger as a ego-protector is that it forms an "ego-net feedback loop". In order to justify self, the other person must be dejustified. To be good, they must be bad. This effects future perceptions and receptions in interpreting events and words, and becomes a self-fulfilling perception which can lead to the dehumanization of the "opponent". An example would be someone who believes in the absolute right to life of all and is willing to kill anyone who disagrees as they must not be human and are therefore exempt from not being killed.

All these monotheistic, savagely proselytizing, male-deity-oriented religions do give me headaches.

Oh, forgot the use of "all" lumping anyone who disagrees with the statement as an enemy. Gross generalization. Everyone I've met at the Pen is unique. The only "all" statement I've found that fits is that we're all unique together.

"proselytizing" - anyone who holds an idea does this in any forum. All that differs is the manner. Anyone who says, "I believe ..." or "I think..." is proselytizing.

Male-deity-oriented - yeah, that's traditionally the way its viewed. In nearly every culture, loving discipline was masculine. Given its commonality, I might suspect it is genetically based - and I'm very suspicious of any genetic-thinking. I do note that my particular religion has many references (often ignored by people seeking ego-power) to male and female not mattering. y'all submit to each other (whoever is most qualified in the situation lead and the rest follow. The word submit translating from a military term meaning, "willing obedience to a legal and lawful authority", not blind slavery. In any group, there will be formal or informal leadership, and the final decision will come from the leaders, or the leaders validating someone else's decision. see sociology and dynamics of small group interactions.) Additionally, in my religion, I seem to recall a "neither hebrew or gentile, male nor female, bond-servant (hebrew variant of slavery, different from American traditional) or free ..." Hard to be clearer than that I'd think, but I see it ignored routinely.

I'm sorry they give you headaches though. I think anyone who endures headaches can relate to that part.

 

We need some more love in the world.

I agree and its the foundation of my religion. Nice to have overlap! Love even for monotheistic, savagely proselytizing, male-deity-oriented religious people?

 

My personal beliefs are heavily Buddhist, somewhat Hindu, but centered around the Goddess. It makes me happy.

 

Good! My personal belief system is that a religion should work for the individual, as well as their effect on others. It should set up the choice for "win-win" situations.

 

I was once an atheist, and I think much like one now, but I have chosen to love the Goddess.

Right on! More "I" statements. In my opinion, religion should be a choice - allowed for every person whether they agree or disagree with each other.

 

All in all, in my opinion, if you'd left out the headache sentence, that would've been a personal affirmation of belief that would've fit in well with the rest of the posting Penners. Except maybe Aardvark, but his hyperbolic rant was so well written and done in such an offensively humorous way that it wasn't offensive. He's very skilled at that.

 

hugs Hopefully this feedback will be received in the gentle analytically based way it was intended. If not, I apologize in advance if I was too harsh.

 

-Pendantic Peredhil

[Aardvark]

Marduk, son of Ea, slayer of Tiamat

 

Marduk rules

 

He totally does

[The Big Pointy One]

Yeah, although you gotta be careful with Marduk.

 

Side-note, I thought the necronomicon was very interesting, but I don't hold it in very high regards... of course, if one were to take it seriously... well... I'd recommend extreme caution, 'cause a lot of stuff in there can't be undone... yikes.

[Justin Silverblade]

<--- My silent concern.

 

- Justin

[Alaeha]

*Bites back a multitude of caustic remarks*

 

I think I'll just leave that one alone...

 

Anyways, onward to the main question of the thread.

 

Yes, I consider myself a religious person. I have set values and standards which I hold myself to despite the fact that some (even among my friends,) seem to consider it a flaw to have standards which are not up for negotiation. I'm not a zealot, nor am I perfect, but I do my best.

 

As for spirituality, that always brings to mind the phrase "not so much religious as spiritual," which I've always found means "I don't want to have anyone else tell me what to do, so bugger off."

 

Feel free to correct me on that if I'm wrong, but unless there's a set definition on what we consider spiritual to mean, I'm not up to answering that part of the question.

[Justin Silverblade]

Alaeha,

 

Just a curious question - could you elaborate somewhat (only if you're interested) on your "values and standards" and your religous beliefs?

 

I only ask because one can have set values and standards, and yet still not be religious in any way.

 

As to your spirituality answer, I understand you completely. You can see my post too, to see that the first thing I really did was want to know what was meant by spirituality.

 

Yours,

- Justin

[Quincunx]

grins at the vivisection

 

Truly there is no mercy in compassion.

 

Presented with two tones of the same religion, I'll go unerringly for the more mystical one; a workable set of social rules was never something with which I was adept. I don't have a religion, haven't felt the lack of religion, know that I would be a mystic, and suspect I'll end up subscribed to a non-intrusive state religion to give my children something (unimportant to my lessons) to rebel against.

 

[Edit: And I've given up on classifying anything by its genitalia, since most of the qualities I have labeled Uniquely Human don't have anything to do with them. Ex-feminist, ex-misogynist.]

Edited July 31, 2004 by Quincunx

[Boaz]

Jesus, what a potentially conveluted answer I have for this question. How does one take something that has helped to define who they are ever since they where old enough to understand that they are not the center of the world, and make one post about it? I don't know, but I guess I can try. I appologize ahead of time for any and all brain cells you lose reading these next few paragraphs.

 

I am the son of a Southern Baptist preacher, and I am Southern Baptist to the core. Now, what does that mean? Few people realize just how much variaty there is within the SBC because of our lack of a true central athority.

 

I have read the bible at least 5 times through over my life(that is what happens when you are in church for 3 hours a week your whole life and you could preach the sermon yourself). I have some beliefs that may not be shared by all. Let me put out a few for ya, if you agree great, if you don't. *shrug*

 

Free Will and its effect on our relationship with God: I believe God gave us freewill because he wanted/needed something other than the very emptiness around him. Think about how much satisfaction you receave from a well written story, a handmade item, etc. Now imagine you could create anything your heart desired? Wouldn't you use said power? I know I would. Now, you have this creation, but how do you continue to get satisfaction from it? What if it was ever changing, what if you could watch it "evolve"(oops! did I say that word!). That is what I think free will is about. I believe God wanted people that chose to worship/love him, and could actually make their own path in life. No one wants their best friend to be a robot.

 

God as all knowing/powerful: I personally believe that God is a being that is outside of the very diminsion of "time". I can't remember the exact quotes, but there are several where he is meantioned as timeless, as the Begining and the End, as I AM. For instance the term I AM, I AM. Not I am I was, or I am to be. This is a term that denotes consistancy. I believe that god knows the past, the present and the future, because time holds no meaning to him. Could I be wrong? *shrug*

 

About Spiritual Leaders and their "sheep": To be honest, I am offended by those that call me a sheep. BAAH to ya if you wish to hear that. I go to preachers for questions/opinions, not because I can't think on my own, but because for something as important as my spiritual life seeking the opinion of someone that has made it their life calling to study the subject just seems prudent. If I have a headache that I can't cure myself, I go to a Doctor. The same thing, if there is a spiritual question that I am not completely certain about, a verse I don't totally understand, I go to someone that has put much more effort into than I. Does this mean I think they will automatically be right? Do I think they are infallable? No, I don't and I take everything with a grain of salt. If I go to a doctor for a headache, and he wants to cut my hand off, I say no thank you.

 

About spirituallity: I think that someone that truely looks into their belief system is spiritual. There is truely only a couple of things I can't abide. The first is someone tha goes with the first thing that seems least like "Christanity". Goths that claim they are wiccans, but have no idea about what that means, that claim to be white witchs. I know one, she didn't have the foggest about what her belief system was suppose to be. The other is people that blame many of the worlds problems on Christanity, do you know that I have a friend that actually had a "wiccan" tell him that war is christanity's fault? I kid you not, they apparently really believe that the world was a paradise before us. *shrug* Oh, then there is the one that claimed that Jesus was actually a buddist and that the church was hiding that fact......

 

That is all folks, sorry about how terrible I am at writting at all, let alone this type of thing. Also sorry for the lenght of this post. All I have to say is this: Believe what you want, but know why you believe it. Believe what you want, but never call others closed minded for their beliefs. Believe what you want, but never demonize others.

 

 

Boaz

[The Big Pointy One]

Boaz- I think that was really well put. I had some commentary, but I'm not exactly eloquent. Basically it involved me realising how ignorant I can be at times. That, and possibly a hypocrite. Regardless, I'm learning more about people. Sociology and theology are interesting...

 

Ntraveler- I don't want to start anything, I shouldn't get involved, but I can't stand by in silence. P can speak for himself, but I want to stand up for him. I can honestly say I haven't met a kinder person than Peredhil. Just because he is expressing how he disagrees with you, that doesn't mean he's trying to straight-up offend you. Not everyone has to agree, but it'd be nice to agree to disagree here. Let's see some community spirit! Laugh it off! Ignore it! Whatever! Sarcasm isn't cool, unless it's witty... and used sparingly. Please, share the love. Don't make me huggle you. I know how, and I'll do it. I swear.

 

I do sincerely apologize if you take offense, but honestly, you have to try and not get offended so easily, it's not worth it.

 

[reverie]

hmm... I'd actually side with n2traveler on this one... nothing is more sacred to me then a person's right to try to figure just what the hell's going on around them... searching one's spiritality is just one way of going about it...

 

~Great generalization and lumping together groups... is just part of the process of seeking out a way to make sence or bring into mind a conception of order for the world... Giving enough time and thought, the process can right itself with mature reflection... It's evolution of the mind... Likewise, inorder to grow sometimes you need sometime to rebel against…

 

That's said, I took no offence at his words and am of a mind to think their may be more behind their exchange than what was said openly, and they (P&N) should settle it out of board...

 

 

~To Boaz... I believe one the phrases you were looking for was, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last." It can be found in the book of Revelations 22:13 (A.k.a the last page of most Protestant Bibles...)

 

 

~My take on Spirtuality 'vs Religion:

 

Religion: When I think of religion; I think of ritual. Ritual of laws, customs, dogma, the overall canon that makes up a system of beliefs.

As opposed to:

 

Sprituality: Sprituality occurs when one is in or atempting to be in tune with the power/essence behind all the dogma… The meaning behind the reasoning.

For one can be said to know all the rules, yet still be "spiritually blind and deaf."

The rituals can serve as the a good framework or spring board, but eventually I find you have to move beyond them... Kinda of like the phrase, "adhere to the spirit of the law, not the letter..."

 

revery

the dreamlost

"as we we're speaking of the devil, you walked right in..." ~aimee mann

the dream continues...

Edited August 1, 2004 by reverie

[Gwaihir]

Ntraveler,

I have no problem with your believing whatever you want and I have no problem with you stating your beliefs, (as long as you do so in the proper threads, like this one) however politeness is absolutely necessary. Feel to pm any elder (or loremaster) if you feel frustrated or offended, but you got to keep it civil.

[Boaz]

reverie,

 

yeah, thanks. I knew the location and everything, but I didn't want to start "throwing bible verses" around. Doing that tends to make people stop listening to you it seems... or could just be my perceptoin

 

 

thanks anyway

 

 

Boaz

[Quincunx]

Boaz - thank you, I don't remember ever seeing a better metaphor for why we would have free will.

 

I had delved back into my collection of Hawthorne short stories and been troubled by the mention of the blessings. Benedictions are so _rare_ in this, my irreligous life, and yet they might be so useful. . .

[purple_shadows]

After almost a year, my old friend has apologized for what happened between us that long time ago. This is the first time that she's talked to me since, and so believes that it's too late to mend things.

 

If there is one thing I know, it's that it's never too late for anything. Not while you are still breathing. It's only when you stop that time runs out. This is the basis of my belief system.

 

I believe in love and hope and forgiveness. I believe in fire and in earth. I believe in light. I believe water is more solid than rock.

 

I believe that you don't need your eyes to see, althought I value what little sight I have as I am an artist and was almost compleatly blind throughout my childhood.

 

I believe everyone has light in them as well as dark, and it is possible to choose the amount you have.

 

I don't believe in luck, and I don't believe in chance, but at the same time I believe that some things were meant to happen because without a certain chain of events or possesion of certain objects, things wouldn't turn out the way they do. I don't believe in having regrets. The past is past, and how different might things have turned out without it?

 

I'm agnostic. I haven't found a reliegion that fits with with my beliefs and frankly, i don't really care to. When I die, I die. i'll worry about beings and a life on the other side later. Provided there is another side.

 

I believe that if there were such a thing as heaven and hell, we are already there. It's called earth. I don't think either is extreamely bad or exxtreamly good. infact, they are both beautiful if you know where to look.

 

I live my life according to what I think is right. Some of it I have been taught directly, but most I've figured out indirectly through observation. I've learned even more through experience.

 

I don't know if any of what I've said can be considered spirituality, to me it just is. It's what I've seen and it's what I know. As for religion, to each his own. Afterall, we're kinda stuck with each other, we might as well make the most of it by respecting the ways other people think.

[Aardvark]

Libel lawyers... BURN!

Union plumbers... BURN!

Corporate dentists... BURN!

Nefarius space-faring beings bent on conquoring my favouriate blue-green ball of rock... BURN!

Media crosspromoters... BURN!

Marketing gurus... BURN!

Self help book authors... BURN!

Spammers... BURN!

Doorknockers... BURN!

Rude people on public transport... BURN!

Third world dictators... BURN!

Ravers... BURN!

Skaties... BURN!

Mothers who don't beat their hellion offspring in public... BURN!

People who drive less than the speedlimit... BURN!

People who don't let speeding me pass them on two or more lane roads... BURN!

Old people who use their age as an excuse to get away with inconveniencing me... BURN!

Any liquor merchant who doesn't stock cachasa... BURN!

People who try to use their lack of english skills to fein ignorance... BURN!

People who argue semantics... BURN!

People who argue against me in anything... BURN!

Anyone who squeezes food in an effort to convince me of it's nutritional value... BURN!

Anyone who fills a cup using the above method... BURN!

People who drink pepsi when coke is freely available... BURN!

People who piss on the toilet seat... BURN!

Anyone who expects a discount without even giving me the satisfaction of a good show of haggling... BURN!

Wyvern... BURN!

Anyone who purposely perpetuates a negative racial sterotype, then has a whinge about racism... BURN!

Racists. Serious ones, not your average joe blow who's just using race because he can't think of anything else using half a second of heated brain time... BURN!

Joe Blow... BURN!

Publicans who don't sell Guiness... BURN!

People who take cheap over bloody tasty... BURN!

Anyone who has a sticker of their car's brand on their windscreen... BURN!

The thief who took the last slice of pizza without consulting me first... BURN!

Scooters... BURN!

Anyone who tells you life was better back in their day... BURN!

Economists... BURN!

Commercial airline "Captains"... BURN!

To be continued... BURN!

[Aardvark]

My shitty job... BURN!

Anyone who capitalises the I in internet... BURN!

Whoever made the word spellchecker declare an uncapitalised M in microsoft a spelling mistake... BURN!

Sitcom actors... BURN!

Anyone who thinks that I care that they care... BURN!

Lack of naked chicks in my bed right now... BURN!

Any soapie star turned singer... BURN!

Any singer turned actor... BURN!

Any pro-wrestler turned actor, with the possible exception of The Rock... BURN!

Oh, what the hell... The Rock... BURN!

Jhonen Vasquez... unless he makes more Zim... BURN!

People who collect vast archives of photo albums that go beyond baby, wedding and family reunion photos... BURN!

White rappers... BURN!

Every other rapper... BURN!

Atheists... BURN!

Agnostics... BURN!

Polyethiests... BURN!

Monethiests... BURN!

Anyone who even thinks about picking me up on my speling... BURN!

Prophets of doom... BURN!

Anyone who honestly puts "Don't care, too busy living to worry about the afterlife" in the box marked religion... salvation

Anyone who puts the above down less than 100% word for word... BURN!

[Peredhil]

Falls out lauging into a lake of fire and BURNs.

[The Big Pointy One]

*Considers making a list then... BURNS*

 

...BURNING